The following interview is commissioned by Yishu Journal.
Bizart, a Shanghai-based organization run by the Chinese artist Xu Zhen and the Italian multi-tasker Davide Quadrio has been quietly making history for the past ten years in China. According to Quadrio, China’s cultural environment has been so de-constructed that it allowed a 360 degrees experimentation and “free” research for almost a decade. In the recent years though, something unexpected happened: the increasing attention that the world has given to China, the economic interests also enhanced by cultural co-operation, and finally the opening up of the Chinese art market have created the conditions for what many define as new cultural imperialism.
In the following interview with Defne Ayas, Davide Quadrio analyzes his experience in China and the particular conditions that allowed Bizart to carry on for many years and discusses the role of this civil society organization that has created, via multi faceted negotiations (Chinese government, international governments, local and worldwide economy) an innovative and engaged position in China’s recent art history.
Defne Ayas
You mentioned that a new kind of a Western imperialism is taking place again in China. What systems do you currently see in place?
Davide Quadrio, Cofounder, BizArt
Over the past decade, one of the main concerns that I had working with people in BizArt and in the international arena was the interaction between international culture and the local one. Bizart was born as a platform for contemporary art creation in an environment where not only funding for the contemporary art was inexistent. There was neither any attention from local and international institutions nor from general public to contemporary art in its less conventional expressions. Bizart used the “local” economy to support its activities in a not for profit way, pretty much by re-investing money earned in any jobs (design, any kind of services, event organizations) to support the creative process both with local and international artists. Bizart historically has been operating in-between local government (hostile/silent acceptance), local economy (private businesses) and the international arena. Through that, I could see and experience misunderstandings arising from a very superficial understanding from both sides (local-international), as well as desires, needs and ideas connected with exoticism from the Western point of view. I have been in this kind of environment, organising exhibitions and talking to different Ministers of Culture, and have seen how the perception of the city has grown. I have also noted a parallel growth in exoticism on our side, which we can also call a new cultural imperialism. Of course, every time we talk about exoticism and imperialism, we open contradictions and things that people today do not like to think about. From the Chinese side, you often see the contradiction between opening up to this massive Americanisation in culture and in business and the growth of nationalism and the idea of Chinese identity.
Defne Ayas
Do you feel that the local artists are more receptive or resistant to the idea of developing an international dialogue?
Davide Quadrio
I would not call it dialogue at the moment. When I speak to all of the artists in Shanghai, most of them are internationally successful and have been using language in their art that is not really “Chinese” in a way. This is a sort of reaction to the Chinese way of doing things. From talking with the artists, I have noticed a kind of attitude that they do not need the rest of the world, as if they are doing their own thing and the rest of the world does not understand. In a way, this is very easy.
Defne Ayas
How do you decipher this attitude?
Davide Quadrio
It is still a mystery in a way. In my view, it is always important to have a 360degree curiosity. The bottom line of creativity and evolution is curiosity. This is especially true for an artist though I may be romantic in that approach and overestimating what artists are capable of doing. In Shanghai, artists are really connected to their own areas of expertise. So, architects are really into their architecture, dancers are really only dancers and musicians are really only musicians. Even when we do projects in BizArt that do not strictly involve visual arts, the artists do not seem to care or try to understand, they do not even show up at the presentation.
Defne Ayas
Chinese artists also take more value in showing outside the country. Why do you think the local artists rather want to seek more excitement outside than inside?
Davide Quadrio
These artists are difficult to categorise. The artists Bizart is working with have been incredibly active around Shanghai for a long time, and they are very committed to the cultural environment there. At the same time, there is a dichotomy between what they do, how they challenge the Shanghai cultural development area and what they do at the international level. Ironically, it is related to the power of money and the honour of showing in big museums and important galleries.
However, it is also very cynical. On another level, many artists, not only those connected to BizArt, are interested in using their money to develop local art. In a series of filmed interviews I realized together with Lothar Spree in the Shanghai artist community, we asked artists if they felt that it was important to support young artists economically. While all of them agreed that it was a good idea, I know that they all do not act on that. Nobody is thinking about creating a bigger system or how to do it in a more constructive way. In a context like China, where there is no real funding, the young generation of artists has no access to grant money. It is gradually changing now as many foundations are becoming interested in China. Still, it is not substantial and, as we know, not all foundation money goes to the right people.
Defne Ayas
In order to take a closer look to the dynamics between the Chinese and Westerners, your collaboration with Chinese artist Xu Zhen at Bizart makes an ideal case study. You have come to Shanghai from Italy with a formation in Chinese studies, equipped with the language skills and understanding of funding structures. And you are an artist yourself. How is this relationship working out for you?
Davide Quadrio
It is something that I always think about. When we started this project, almost 10 years ago, I was not always conscious of it. It happened because we were reacting to a situation, and we had the sensibility to do it. Either you feel it or you do not. There is nothing special about that. Incredibly, at that time, we were totally disconnected from the international arena and the greedy eyes of collectors and galleries. Therefore, we had the time to have experiences and to build this kind of environment. Its success really resulted from the will of a few people. One of the awakening event that happened was Art for Sale Exhibition (April 1999, Times Square, Shanghai), where I met Alexander Brandt, Xu Zhen, Liang Yue, Yang Fudong, Yang Zhenzhong and many others. That exhibition was incredibly awakening because it marked a big change where we saw another possibility for artistic development in Shanghai. It was clear that there was a need to make art opposed to just being a product. It can also have social and political aspects that can build something different or interact with the environment to create something that would not otherwise happen. Of course, at that point it was only a feeling and to get from a feeling to an achievement you need work, time and probably several generations.
Defne Ayas
What followed the Art For Sale exhibition?
Davide Quadrio
We then tried to find a place to connect. Before that, I had tried to organise some small exhibitions. In a way, we were planting the seeds of what was to come next. As part of our preparation work, we also cooperated with bars and temporary spaces. I was also engaged with another group of people who were all abstract painters. My own paintings were related to abstract painting, and I had exhibitions with these artists. I was around 26 years old. After the closure of Art For Sale by the police, there was a longterm negotiation with the municipality and a general cultural and artistic discussion with local artists, curators and critics. Among all of them, Hans van Dijk of CAAW was of incredible inspiration and help in this process. Then, when we decided to open a space with the help of Huang Yuanqing and Katelijn Verstraete, I called a meeting with Yang Zhenzhong and Xu Zhen about opening a platform for notforprofit art.
Defne Ayas
But the idea of BizArt idea had already existed prior to this exhibition, right?
Davide Quadrio
We activated it in 1998 and started doing small exhibitions, some of which were commercial but I was more interested in actions and engagement with the community of artists. It was also the period to try to position which area of interest we wanted to explore. Moreover it was a way to see how the local government was reacted to this “independent” artistic energy.
After this exhibition [Art for Sale], there was a moment of understanding and the realisation of the potential to achieve something great and to have a physical presence in the city. At that time, to be a foreigner was the easiest way. After all, Art for Sale was closed down for pornography, and some of our members were questioned by police and “reeducated”. As a Chinese person, you felt unprotected because there were few civil rights, and all of the power was related to relationships. In fact, power is having a relationship. When you are young and without any political power, it can be a very frightening situation since you do not know what will happen to you. At that point, being a foreigner was useful and I threw myself in.
Defne Ayas
Were you uncomfortable with this role?
Davide Quadrio
It was fine because it is part of my personality anyway. Even when I was growing up, I used to do this anyway.
Defne Ayas
Could you use talk about this picture titled Soft Power a bit, in which you and Xu Zhen are leaning against each other but holding each other at gunpoint?
Davide Quadrio
For me, soft power is the power of negotiation. It is also the power of intelligence because it is a way of convincing people to do something. The image of the two of us holding the plastic cans looks very real. This is a message of using strength and silence but, at the same time, it cannot actually hurt anyone.
In the cultural environment, we try to create a discourse that pushes boundaries. Even though you do not want to consider it, there is a sort of violence. There is an ethical part that puts things in an uncomfortable way. One of the elements in all of the cultural and artistic areas is soft power and the ironic response to what you have suffered artistically. For us, it has always been very linked. There is also a historical aspect; not just referring to me, Xu Zhen or BizArt, but the past 10 years in Shanghai have been historical in terms of economics, culture and architecture. In a way, art and culture are in the middle of this. At the end of the day, you can never use a violent approach and if you do, it creates an unstable factor and the government gets involved. Therefore, soft power has been one of the basic things that we have been learning over the 10 years, such as the power of negotiation, words, relationships and respect. Sometimes, the only way to solve the conflict between two different systems is through negotiations.
Defne Ayas
But Xu Zhen has been quoted on television as saying that you are a Western hooligan. Is this his humorous take on his collaboration with a Westerner?
Davide Quadrio
It is strange because, for me, it is incredibly clear. In a way, Xu Zhen is very practical and, while he has a sort of innocence, he also has an incredibly cynical way of approaching things. On one side, I know that our friendship is based on a sincere friendship and understanding of what we want to do. On the other side, I also know that it is convenient to have me involved in the boring financial aspect: bringing money in. I think that in our relationship sharing the same vision and using each other to achieve this is a true fact. This is clear between us and it makes sense because we are taking the project in the right direction. I do not think that this is a particularly Chinese trait but that it is part of the human way of working. If you are clever enough, you can work in this kind of system in a way that does not lead to frustration. Of course, sometimes, it is not easy.
In the last decade it happened often that I got really tired of fighting the wind mills, but I always felt the whole organisation was there, and really there to support me. What we do and how we make it is never about the money. There are many others organizations and people who can have and use or find more money than I did for Bizart and its projects. When we engage in a project we will try to get it realised despite the amount of money we can find. There is never pressure on me if we cannot find the money. For me, this is a healthy approach. Of course, Bizart uses my skills, my relationships and my ability to make people believe in me but it is for a good cause.
Defne Ayas
Xu Zhen is also known to “attack” a number of artists and curators on a blog supported by Bizart. Is that what you are talking about regarding lack of criticality and openness?
Davide Quadrio
In China, the critical approach is so incredibly bad that the only way is to attack. For me, it is very superficial but it is the only way to get some reaction. This is amazing and I do not totally agree with this approach because it is not deep enough. At the same time, who can do these things in an intellectual way in China? The critics in China are more acting as marketing experts, their job is about discovering and supporting new artists so that they become a good investment in the art market. So if attacking is a way to destabilise this system, maybe it is a good way given these conditions.
Defne Ayas
How do you balance the artistic direction that your Chinese collaborator provides to Bizart with the projects that you bring to the table?
Davide Quadrio
That is part of the ongoing discussion between us. What is really magical about the whole operation is that the cooperation between us is independent yet close. This mix is good in the sense that we are not doing the same thing and we are not necessarily looking for the same thing. Interestingly, we have not had any conflict or evident difference in direction so far that could not be accommodated by the other. I do not fully understand why this is the case but it may have to do with having a longterm vision more than a shortterm one. For both of us, it was important to have a place where creativity, possibilities and artist support were the bottom line. We want to avoid the risk of becoming boring. We also share an intellectual interest in artistic knowledge. For instance, this means understanding development and trying to have a critical approach to things, or at least trying to understand what sort of critical approach can be applied.
On the other side, we also just want to help people. On occasion, this can become a problem in terms of the quality of the work that we provide. We can invite the right artist for a prestigious project at any time but sometimes we just help an artist get his ideas across. This can be a bit naïve.
Defne Ayas
How has your relationship to the local artists evolved over time?
Davide Quadrio
It is a very strange relationship. On one side I have being a total money machine for years, where I have to find money for everything (exhibitions, space rental, people working in Bizart including my salary), and it was not easy. Sometimes I felt like I was always linked to the economy. There is a lot of superficial understanding among the Chinese artists about what I have been doing and my position in Bizart. It was often taken for granted. Funny enough artists and people in general think that Bizart is very rich because we do so much, but people who really work with Bizart knows that actually we are really always in a very fragile economic status. [laughing] But if there are good projects I always try to help and find money. We support artists with this system but artists need to support Bizart as well with honest work.
Defne Ayas
It sounds like quite a powerful position, too.
Davide Quadrio
Sometimes it is but, at the same time, it is superficial. I do more than that. Having a place is not only physical, but also a creative place, and sometimes you have to overthink the changes required and the directions of development to be followed.
Defne Ayas
When you had to deal with the Chinese government bureaucracy, how much did you enable the relationships between BizArt and the government?
Davide Quadrio
That is a fascinating issue. Once again, everything was invented on the spot. In fact, what I am doing here is still illegal because, as a private entity, you cannot do a lot of cultural things. Our activity was tricky for the government. Since we were not selling paintings for money, our position was always very complicated for the government. Of course, they never ask me questions directly but when they ask the people around me they are always trying to understand why I am doing this and what sort of political agenda I am following. Increasingly, I have become involved in prestigious political events for the Chinese government. When the Barcelona meeting on civil societies and cultural development was held four years ago, I was invited to speak. Recently, we have become an accessory to a lot of political decisions made in Shanghai about culture, and we have done a lot of indirect work for them. Of course it is seldom that we are officially recognised.
Defne Ayas
How actively were you involved in changing of this environment?
Davide Quadrio
Xu Zhen and I, we were both involved in different ways. Of course, Xu Zhen and the group of artists have always organised outside exhibitions at least twice a year and have always tried to push the value and presence of our work in the public domain. I have always worked on seeking ways to meet organisations or groups who could help us locally and internationally. In this regard, I have been using my connections with the Consulates and Embassy to gain a sort of international political blessing and smooth government reactions. The first exhibition that we held of young French and Chinese artists [Developing Time, 2000] was sponsored entirely by the French Government via the Consulate General of France in Shanghai. Thanks to this money, we could run the entire exhibition. At the time, there were not many people doing cuttingedge projects in Shanghai and there was a no real venue. It was a very daring help from the Consulate and it needed a lot of courage.
Defne Ayas
Did collaborations of this kind with international bodies compromise the integrity of BizArt at any point?
Davide Quadrio
Sometimes it did but not really. In the end, we always chose the criteria and we decided accordingly. Sometimes we made mistakes in choosing artists or events but it was necessary to have the money to survive. Of course, if I look back I would not work with some artists or organizations, but I think that everybody will say the same on this aspect.
Defne Ayas
How did the network of Chinese artists react to the fact that this place was growing with international support?
Davide Quadrio
They were not really concerned. We have always been very practical about that. Some of our exhibits have never been seen in Shanghai before. Even if the level is not very high, it can be interesting to show art that was not commonly showed in China. For example, in 2000, we showed an installation by an Australia based Swiss artist, Joe Felber together with a dance performance. At the time, nothing like that had been seen in Shanghai. We could invite the artist and the project thanks to Pro Helvetia and we could make Jin Xing’ group working on the installation and making a finissage open to public. For me, the most interesting thing of this project was not the “
imported” project being shown in Shanghai but what we could get through this: how our people work together and learn from this experience, how to work with the technology, how to work with a foreign artists who never worked in China etc. For me, this is important because this kind of “exchange” would not exist otherwise. Whether an international project is imperialistic or not depends on how you manage this connection and how you understand the needs of the local scene and how the international project/artist fits in this context and, most important, what can be left in the local context. With this principle in your head, you can try to assemble different actors who can work together. Of course, you also have to expect failures. However, at the same time, you create a place where people can operate and benefit for a while through contacts and communication, even if this benefit is difficult to monitor. Basically, I see my role as putting together in a creative and flexible way a certain artistic “act” that responds to a local “lack” and it creates a small ‘crisis’ that can open up micro developments.
Defne Ayas
When we speak about civil liberties and its relationship to cultural development in China, BizArt’s presence still remains rather vague.
Davide Quadrio
BizArt did not have a clear political agenda. It is still quite difficult to have a critical attitude towards what Bizart does and where is heading. I invited Chu Chuyuan and Jay Koh, artists/critics living in Singapore last year to assess the situation of BizArt and have a critical view from outsiders. I think that what they wrote in their report really answer this:
“Within a system undergoing political, social and cultural changes, artists and cultural workers are always hanging out on the limb trying to guess or predict what can and should be created in response to these changes. It is a situation not engendering of openness and transparency – being open means being vulnerable, being visible for attack. More than that, in the first place, one may not be able to stop long enough at one place to have a ‘position’ to begin with - so how to be transparent about it? It is a ‘useless’ thing to have (more so for the practical-minded), as the situation would have changed before you have time to make use of any advantage gained from a position.”
In this respect BizArt has been working in this way: trying to predict and making make smaller but innovative steps. In a way, Bizart was a close system on one side reaching out to discover more. This two natures correspond to the two heads on the organizations me and Xu Zhen. This tension though, as I explained, was never explosive but actually created the uniqueness of this organization build on progressive work.
Other organizations, like Vitamin for instance were much more clever in using the international art system than Bizart and they were able to create a professional image even before acting on the territory. I really respect the work that Zhang Wei and Hu Fang do with Vitamin, but I found it strange that the organization was presented in the international context (Venice Biennale for instance) even before the space was active in Guangzhou.
Defne Ayas
They have become very fluent in the vocabulary that Bizart had carved out over the last decades.
Davide Quadrio
BizArt is much more complex to understand than a gallery or a public institution or museum. For example, we never had any kind of special relationship with powerful curators. They have always tried to keep their distance from us. We are always isolating ourselves in a way. For many curators who come to China for a week and make an international exhibition on Chinese art then, complexity is a tricky issue. Bizart was a complex and not understandable organization, difficult to summarize: for instance it is very unclear how we support ourselves and we are clearly work in an environment that is not focused on becoming successful and powerful. This “recognized power” might come at some point but when and if we get involved in this type of power game, part of the fun will vanish as you become a “symbolic representation” and people defer to you because you represent something; not because you just are doing something. For me and Xu Zhen, that has always been very important but expressed in different ways: there has always been a very destructive or arrogant approach on Xu Zhen’s side toward the “outside” and vice versa a very defensive approach concerning Chinese art, and a bigger need from me to open, discuss and reach out for other things. Sometimes, I feel that one of the big problem in China and in Bizart is that there is not enough openness and too much cynicism. But this discussion is going on and it is part of our agenda for the near future.
Defne Ayas
How do you keep engaging with art history - the 10 decades that you just talked about - as a participant, an agent and an outsider?
Davide Quadrio
We have been thinking a lot about art history, documentation etc. for the past years. One of the problems with project like BizArt is that it has been developing in many different levels, from business and economics to the building a position in the cultural and artistic development. Although we have felt a part of the city cultural development, we have also felt pulled and pushed in all directions by the changes that Shanghai undertaken in the last decade. Overall, it has been difficult to stop and think about what you are asking, which role you have and how important it is. It is normal to try to gain distance from all the activities you are involved with but it is impossible to be distant or look from outside while you are fully involved. As Shi Yong noticed once: “I cannot afford to rest. If I take a break, I’m afraid I’ll be left behind. Everyone and everything would have gone ahead of me and forgotten me.’ Or quoting Xu Zhen: “Chinese artists are too busy with catching up with what’s happening inside China, there is no time to dialogue with outside.”It is just happening too fast. Indeed, things happen so fast that you always feel that your work is not enough. Even though we do 40 projects per year, it feels insufficient. In a society where production is valued, this is the result. In Europe, a gallery with five projects per year seems very active. Here, it does not look like that. Even if you have not enough the money to do more and you can only barely go on, this feeling continues: it is not enough! Over the years, we have had economic crises but have never discussed cancelling a project for lack of funding. This seems contradictory: we try to build a sustainable economy but still do without obeying to the economic basic rules: no money no activities.
Defne Ayas
When you hyperproduce at and for BizArt, do you think there is still something missing?
Davide Quadrio
There are a few major points that I feel have been missing. The first is a critical approach to things, with a substantial openness in analysing that. The second thing is the lack of understanding of cultural background and conflicts in China. If you see the different levels of understanding from the outside, the outlook can be very superficial, not understood at all or understood in the wrong way due to lack of substantial cultural references and connections. The risk of this is that you try to justify what is happening here in a way that is as simplest as possible: understandable becomes a result of subtractions, taking away what does not responds to the “known” system. This way, critics, journalists often create a picture of China based on pre-concepts and on a power system that comes from an international context (European/American) and reflects a language that not necessarily can be declined in the Chinese context.
Defne Ayas
Or the translation system?
Davide Quadrio
Yes, which I think is very risky. On the other side, the contemporary Chinese artists and critic put themselves in the position of censors, blaming internationalisation of not understanding China and justifying all the problems and conflicts in Chinese art world via this excuse. This is very disturbing and cynical and also too easily instrumental. This complex relation opens up other contradictions as well.
Defne Ayas
How do you pursue the relationship between the artists who are very aware of the internationalisation impact and the way art history is made? Is there a consciousness on the artists’ behalf of how things are written up?
Davide Quadrio
There are people who blame the system but fail to define the system. They still over the power that the system gives them through recognition, international exposure, prestige and money. Of course, it is a fascinating thing for all concerned: the artists, the gallery, BizArt and everyone. While it is fascinating, it is also very dangerous and you have to be able to keep a distance from it and maintain a critical approach. Otherwise, it becomes more of an economic environment than a cultural environment.
Defne Ayas
Let’s talk about the commercial aspect of Bizart’s activities. Do you know any other similar model around the world that offers business services and invests all its revenues into the ideals of contemporary art? This sounds too idealistic to be true.
Davide Quadrio
It is very idealistic. Of course, in the beginning, we only had three people in our organization, which was very manageable. The core group of BizArt people have been working together for a long time. The money issue has always been there but was never the main issue. The BizArt model is very particular to China, where, 10 years ago, there was no money for art or interest in Chinese art. Indeed, it was not even considered as art by the institutions and the political accreditations. Coming from this kind of background, what we wanted to was not understood or even considered as art. Consequently, the only option was to try a mix of art and nonart activities. BizArt was different as we were getting experience in art services and production for artists. It is a strange model because we use our money to pay employees and reinvest in projects that do not necessarily make money. I do not know of any other organisation with this model exist without any public founding that support at least structural funding. Of course BizArt economic situation is changing now that Arthub has been founded in Hong Kong and that international foundation support more and more of our activities…
Defne Ayas
How do you keep both your idealism and cynicism in check though when the market is acting like a heat and money- seeking missile?
Davide Quadrio
It is a very difficult question and is becoming more difficult to try to keep an independent approach. Especially when Chinese artists are becoming filthy reach and go around with BMW and all [laugh]. I also think that in my case it is related to ageing, I am not in my twenties anymore! But I am convinced that it is good not to take everything seriously in life. We need to remember that art is not something people need to survive. We are producing art and people do not –necessarily- die because of our actions. At the same time, art is such an incredible thing to produce and support. While it is true that people do not need it, art and the poetic or the most “precise” art is still so incredibly important to contribute to create quality in life. To quote Ezra Pound “Good art can not be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. - . If art is not there, there is not poetry either and our life will be without true passion.
Defne Ayas
Why do you think that there is such a lack of connection now between the inner life of art and the outer life of consumption of the market?
Davide Quadrio
In China, people are very practical. It would be very interesting to open a discussion with artists on this topic. In my experience, artists are very involved in their work, often without any social recognition or relation to the market. At the same time, the market and capitalism came into China so quickly and so contradictorily, it is impossible to recognise anything from 10 years ago. What you see now in Shanghai was almost nonexistent. There were no buildings in Pudong area. It came in so quickly and so naturally, that it almost seemed normal. The same thing happened in art. As you know, the international market came in and is linked to a small group of artists that represent good investment, and they have been “artificially” made up by speculators and action houses. But, in fact, artists are very practical and produce art for sale while focusing on their own projects, which might be of less commercial interest. This is happened without major drama or with ethical doubts: it is just the way it is.
Defne Ayas
If that is the reality of the world, how can you bypass it without playing by its rules? Why did BizArt decide not to sell artworks?
Davide Quadrio
We resembled a negative reflection of all those people going for the money. We did it because it was part of who we were. In a way, it was a sort or counter-performance at the beginning, highly symbolic [laugh]. So, as I explained we were using money (collected from any kind of works and sponsors) to pay Bizart expenses and productions. It was ok for the first few years, costs were low and we could make exhibition with small budget. However, it appeared quite quickly that we could not do it in the long run. But this system was indeed good to build a small community of artists around BizArt that were interested in experimenting and creating new content. BizArt became like a family for many of them. While this economic model worked for a while, in the past few years, it has become difficult or almost impossible. In a market like China, where nobody is protected anyway, the bank cannot lend you money if you do not have money. No bank will offer cash just based on signed contracts, so the cash flow has been (and still is) a serious problem. Try to imagine how difficult that was controlling and managing this, especially when clients and sponsors are late in terms of payment…To survive, you need money and power and to be able to have something that secure the economic level in a long term (sustainability). While BizArt tries not to become involved in the artistic market, in the selling and dealing in particular, we were able to get involved in business activities that could be related to art (public art projects, art services for Governments and Institutions) and this create a sort of micro economy.
What become of extreme interest for BizArt, and especially for me, looking for money, was that I had to deal with the “other” world the “business” world in China, learn a new language, make presentation business like, create synergies and understanding about what we are doing. There was no public money for what we were doing. All we did was use the money that we earned. When you grow, you need more money coming in because new projects require more money. Of course, you have to deal with the business world and I found this incredibly fascinating. In a way, the business world is very practical and very “exact”. In contrast, the political or institutional environment in the context of foundations can be much more conservative and complicated, and takes time to create “political” connections. The public funding institutions are a bit more blurred to deal with than the business world.
Defne Ayas
Art always seems to mimic and twist the commercial realm, be it in film, architecture, or technological applications. Because of the commerce aspect of BizArt, do you think that there is an added intelligence to your activities?
Davide Quadrio
I think so. In our position, we have been pushed to deal with the business reality and I like that very much. While we were doing all of this crazy activity on the art side, on the business side, we had to learn a language and make people understand what we were doing. We had to create a package that did not compromise what we wanted to do but which was acceptable to the business side and earned money. For me, this has never been a problem. In a way, it is much easier to talk to straightforward business people than it is with institutions, foundations or politicians, who can delay actions. If business people like a project, they make their list of demands and it is done. Money in exchange of benefits and marketing.
In art, business always was part of the game. Artworks were commissioned by mecenates or collectors, if we look at the art history… art was very often luxe and decoration. For me, the idea that art and business should not be related never made sense, they are related. What I enjoy is to see the two worlds, making them work together without compromising the genuine nature of the artistic choices.
Defne Ayas
So tell me. Where is BizArt headed?
Davide Quadrio
I do not know what BizArt will do in the longterm. We created now a not for profit in Hong Kong that expands Bizart scope and make it more Asian. Established at the beginning of 2007, Arthub, a Hong Kong-based not-for-profit foundation, gives a pragmatic and financial framework to BizArt’s work in promoting contemporary art creation in China and the rest of Asia. In this context, the next three years, will see Arthub working with the Prince Claus Foundation as a partner for Asia. This will open new opportunities for our projects to expand all over Asia. That is the immediate future. In addition, we will try to work more on the educational side with artists from all over China. We will also work in communication and on critical platforms. Having a platform in Hong Kong, which will not just include BizArt, will open up new possibilities of cooperation over a larger area.
Defne Ayas
Will BizArt work as a recipient organisation working under an umbrella organisation?
Davide Quadrio
Exactly. Even though BizArt is a privileged recipient for structural funding, it can become a separate entity that can work under an umbrella organisation like Arthub or a consortium of several organizations and funding bodies that want to support us.
Defne Ayas
Why did you need to jumpstart Arthub that has a bigger scope than BizArt? Why did you not choose BizArt for this expansion?
Davide Quadrio
Even though China is a huge country, it is very focused on itself. I do not know if all of the BizArt group agrees with that but I felt that it was important not to be in a corner. It is useful to open up and see what is happening in Asia and how it relates to China. After 50 years of being closed, China was very interesting for other Asian countries. This created new energies within the country and, between China and other countries, relationships had to start again. For example, South Korean artists started coming to China in the late 1990s. For them, it was easier to go to the United States, Paris and London than to come to Beijing, even though it is only 80 minutes away. I found this geographical closeness with cultural distance very fascinating and was curious to see what new links could be built. For me, that was important. Professionally, it was also important for me not to be related to one place and one context, but just trying to go beyond.
Defne Ayas
The beauty of Arthub is that it is not a fixed space.
Davide Quadrio
Indeed, and to be fixed is not our intention. The question is: will curiosity kill the cat?
Defne Ayas
Thank you, Dadou. This was a revealing session.
